Just a question whether you call it a Kibbutz or a Collective when did communisim become the business model in the United States? Last time I needed cough medicine I didn't have to grow and cook my own ingredients, I drove to a for profit pharmacy and picked it up.

More grandstanding from our noble councilman. I like the "Alice in Wonderland" allusion from Mr. Larsen. What did the caterpillar smoke in that story? The dispensaries have very deep pockets - watch 'em sue the city and drain your resources that could be used to fight real crimes.

Ajay, you are right I am trying to simplify a point. I know the difference but trying to point out the stupidity of the legislators who designed the Post prop 215 language and inserted the non profit status. In no other industry do they do that and 5@1 c's are not a good comparison. This is really about a failed policy which is the war on drugs. Instead of imposing appropriate regulation that taxes marijuana like alcohol and tobacco we abdicate our responsibility to criminals, cartels and thugs. My metaphor may have been incorrect, but it still one that we can relate too in a capitalistic society. Love the exchange :)

Good review of the current state of the law Ajay, but you left out the reason for the mess we are in; City Attorney Carmen Trutanich. He has already passed 2 laws that were unconstitutional. The chaos caused by his ineptitude allowed illegal drug dealers to open up more and more marijuana shops while he goes around falsely claiming that he's closing them down. We can see the truth of the situation with our own eyes, in the meantime, Trutanich goes around neighborhood councils claiming the opposite and the ill informed applaud him like he's a hero. He's the exact opposite. His foolish approach caused this mess. What we needed, and what he promised, was a law that would allow legitimate dispensaries to exist. He turned his back on the good guys and passed laws basically outlawing all sales of marijuana - even to sick and dying cancer patients. The solution is not to ban everything (that's always his answer), it is to pass a law that supports legitimate dispensaries even if that law violates federal law. Federal law needs to be challenged, and only the second largest city in the US can do that if it had a city attorney that cared enough about the problem. But Trutanich, for all his words, does not care. Just look at the way he tried to bully a cancer patient who tried to challenge him at a city hall meeting. Google "City Attorney Clashes with Speaker at 2009 Congress of Neighborhoods" to see it on YouTube.

Michael:
What puzzles me, and since you were at the press conference maybe you'd know, is that on October 12th Bernard Parks and Jan Perry quietly introduced a motion to ban, (they held no press conference I don't think they even sent a press realease) The motion has already passed into committee (see council file 11-1737) this is a viable motion, why is Huizar introducing second motion to ban? Did he even bother to tell any of you there was already legislation pending? With the City going broke, it would seem a better use of time and money NOT to introduce duplicate motions.

There are more Rite Aids in the LA area than libraries and schools combined. That to me is more disconcerting than the number of Marijuana Dispensaries that rigorously and thoroughly validate each patient/member. Rite Aids have pills on the shelves that our children can reach. Many steal, and consume the items these "Drug Stores" have openly available to the public. They also sell cigarettes and alcohol. The proliferation of Drug and Alcohol stores have a negative impact on the quality of life in local communities. Is that not more dangerous than supposed "proliferation" of non dangerous plant? http://www5.riteaid.com/savenow/locator/store-results?header%3Azip=90011&streetaddress=&city=&state=&storeum=0&miles=20&maxshow=10&platlong=0.0~0.0~0.0~0.0&conv=false&digital=false&drive=false&gnc=false&nite=false&plab=false&pOnline=false&pic=false&rewards=false&Go=Go

Proclaims Larsen, "...So it makes sense to me to shut all of them down until law is settled and then create an ordinance that works for everyone." So where would you propose that patients procure their prescribed medicine in the meantime?

Michael:
I must disagree with some of your comments above. Most of the older Pre-ICO collectives have never sued the City.The bulk of the 58 lawsuits were launched by newer collectives which were banned in the ordinance.

The City Attorney's Office sued 158 defendants, most of them older collectives open before 9/14/2007, claiming that these organizations could never add, subtract, or substitute ANY member of their management team. The City Council, feeling this was a little extreme, amended the language of their ordinance.

A year after the amended ordinance was enacted, the City Attorney's Office has yet to release the defendants from the suit, though they are currently in negotiations to do so. This accounts for the biggest single piece of litigation and it was brought by the City, not the Collectives.

After the press conference you participated in was complete, my organization, GLACA spoke during public comment and urged the City Council to speak with attorneys who stood ready to advise the counsel on how to regulate in a Post-Pack environment. We would be happy to meet with your organization as well.

From what I understand, the original bill to allow dispensaries to exist was only a half page long. Anybody else see a flaw with this?

Mr Larsen, How many pages was the original law, which legalized "mary jane", here in Los Angeles?

That's your own opinion Mr Larsen, the courts have decided otherwise and the City has been losing lawsuit after lawsuit on the subject. I understand there is pending litigation but the argument "leave them open until the courts decide" makes a lot more sense than the argument "ban them until the courts decide". It's the old "innocent until proven guilty". In fact if we ban them now and the courts decide later that we shouldn't have, we (the city) we'll get sued for a lot of money.
But at the end of the day what matters is: Where are the victims of this "crime"? And how does it help the neighborhood to have more vacant stores?

Mr. Pascal, the LAW is not my opinion. Health and Safety Code Section 11357-11362.9.

In the latest lawsuit against the City, the City's ordinance was upheld against the complaints of the "rogue" shops. It would have been implemented if not for the Pack decision which says that cities can ban them but not regulate their operation or density. The courts have recently made it clear that cities CAN ban dispensaries, so they are pretty safe from lawsuits on that point.

The victims of the crime are other law-abiding businesses who follow the rules, the law, and sometimes take years to open, while pot shops open and operate as they please with no regulation or accountability. The victims are the families who would sell their homes to get away from certain dispensaries because of the threats to their children and the constant nuisances that go unaddressed because there is no regulation. The victims are the homeowners of Eagle Rock who now have to deal with the stigma of being a "Little Amsterdam" when trying to sell them homes to families looking for a safe, family-friendly community.

Many people feel that illicit massage parlors, illegal bars, and gambling houses are victimless crimes also. Do you advocate filling vacant stores with these kinds of activities too?

I appreciate you position Mr. Pascal, but we simply disagree.
I do not have any moral qualms with responsible marijuana use, and I support federal rescheduling so you are off base with your assumptions about my motivations.
All I have been advocating is sensible, enforceable regulations and accountability. Right now none of those things exist with the pot shops.
It just so happens that the courts have ruled that cities like LA cannot regulate the shops responsibly because that would violate federal law. Until that issue can be worked out in the CA Supreme Court, I would rather see no more pot shops open in Eagle Rock. The only way that will happen is the temporary city ban that Mr. Huizar has proposed.
If anyone is interested in knowing where the shops are in ER, they can see 8 of them on this web site: http://bit.ly/rQpHYo
More here: http://bit.ly/siCC8O

What are these 'enforceable, sensible regulations and accountability' that liquor stores and pharmacies follow?

For plenty more silly ranting and half-informed legal opinion on marijuana (often mixed with references to prostitution and drinking) google: "Michael Larsen, Eagle Rock, pot". It also turns out people were smoking the weed at a music festival in LA - alert the media, people smoke pot in both Highland Park and Eagle Rock! (Someone should also tell Councilman Huizar there's an income opportunity for the police in providing police protection from pot smokers to the Eagle Rock Music Festival). Anyway, Mr. Marino's reference to the Taliban gains traction with some reading of Mr Larsen's moral admonishments and judgements, legal opinions and fantasies.

Maybe we (we, the freedom loving patriotic Americans who believe in democracy and the will of the people, that is) need to start having some smoke outs - perhaps outside the next ERNC meeting?

Let's wait until the business meeting, when we can arrange hassle-free arrests and a photo-op for Councilman Huizar without ruining your religious celebration. Just put your anti-clinic campaign on the agenda (maybe even little ol' me and, perhaps, a few friends?) and make sure the Councilman will stay for a couple of extra minutes for his photo. I will be so happy to be there.

I will also be very, very happy to bring fat, potent, completely legal in California marijuana cigarettes for those with pre-checked, valid physician recommendations (I bet I can figure out how to do this through the Eagle Rock clinics...) I personally grew this marijuana from marijuana clones bought, legally, in Eagle Rock. Further, I will joyfully light (in the presence of only adults, naturally, outside if any prefer, making every attempt to obey California law, of course) my own marijuana cigarette to celebrate my freedom as a Californian (and, I believe, American) from ridiculous drug laws and my ability to treat my legal, medical condition. Oh, and my freedom from the judgement and harassment of people like you.

Please contact me though Ajay or David so we can arrange a time, appropriate press coverage, and I have at least 48 hours to call my friends and organize. I'll be happy to give you 24 hours notice of how many patients like me will show up, so you and Councilman Huizar can make sure you have the appropriate number of police officers on hand. Hope to see you there, Michael!

Yep, that's the rationale the police could use to arrest us, all other things being legal, and then Councilman Huizar could get his photo op. You don't miss a thing. Thanks for the invite to regularly keep up with the very important Eagle Rock Neighborhood Council and, of course, the very important Michael Larsen - but I really only pay attention to the neighborhood council circuses when the big clowns are in town. So my offer stands - let me know the next time Councilman will be around and you will be bloviating together about the clinics.

You bet Rob. Just keep an eye on the agendas at www.eaglerockcouncil.org, friend our Facebook page, or send me your email and I'll add you to our e-newsletter mailing list. My email is president@eaglerockcouncil.org
Councilmember Huizar usually comes to our meetings at least once per year.
Thanks.

Speaking of Amsterdam, they just passed a law prohibiting the sale of pot to tourists.

Why not add zip code restrictions to the local ordinance so only local shops will service the needs of local residents.

Wow! For the first time I had a look at the dispensary map http://bit.ly/rQpHYo Mr Larsen provided. Frankly I had simply accepted his and councilman's Huizar's propaganda that Eagle Rock was the weed capital of Los Angeles. Hogwash. Simply take a look at the map and you'll see we have as many dispensaries as Santa Monica. Certainly less than Downtown, Hollywood, West Hollywood, West LA, Venice and the Valley.

Mr. Larsen - Or, just let us know here with a link when you get around to posting an agenda. Thanks.

(E-mail to Ana Cubas, Councilman Huizar's Chief of staff, and others. Complete .pdf attached above.)

Dear Ms. Cubas:

I am working with Mr. Michael Larsen, President of the Eagle Rock Neighborhood Council, to arrange a peaceful demonstration of medical marijuana patients to protest Councilman Huizar’s recent efforts to ban all medical marijuana clinics in Los Angeles.

While of course I disagree with Councilman Huizar, I can also see how this demonstration, and possible arrests if the demonstrators choose to use their medication in public, would serve to position Mr. Huizar as a “law and order” candidate as he runs for Los Angeles City Attorney. As well as, of course, bolster his efforts to secure funding for Carmen Trutanich’s office to prosecute clinics in the meantime. To insure safety for all, I would also be happy to communicate with your office the general number of protestors and expected arrests so you can arrange appropriate police presence in advance.

The first opportunity for these acts of peaceful civil disobedience would be the Eagle Rock Neighborhood Council Meeting this coming Tuesday, December 6th, 6:30 PM at the Eagle Rock Center for The Arts. Please let me know if Councilman Huizar will be in attendance or, in the alternative, when the councilman will next be in Highland Park or Eagle Rock to address either public questions in general or the issue of Medical Marijuana Clinics specifically.

Thank You.

Sincerely -
Robert Schraff

There's no drama without Councilman Huizar, Michael. That's because this isn't about me or you, it's about Councilman Huizar rolling over on his constituency to position himself for higher office. You are just a free tool and medical marijuana patients are just easy victims.

As for "public safety" threat that nonviolent medical marijuana patients represent smoking their meds in public, I'll leave that for you and Councilman Huizar to worry about.

I will also happily take a ticket instead of arrest, and others may as well - perhaps you should even offer a table, chairs and refreshments so officers can write citations and if necessary fill out arrest reports. In fact I am thinking, in some ways due to your help and insight, that Medical Marijuana Patient Smoke-Ins could become a regular thing in Eagle Rock and Highland Park. We could even do mini smoke-ins on a flash basis, targeting Councilman Huizar, Carmen Trutanich, or other politicians trying to exploit medical marijuana patients, when they show up for local public events, photo ops and so forth.

Anyway, I'll have to start networking with patient rights groups and have some kind of organizing meeting, which I will announce soon (very soon if we can get the Councilman to show up and take full credit for his initiatives on Tuesday), and a larger group can discuss it then. In the meantime, I'm thinking the proto-organization should be called "Take A Hit For Freedom." What do you think?

(There was a patch site glitch last night, plus the windstorm. This is a slightly edited version of what I tried to post last night.)

Will Councilman Huizar be there, Michael? As I have repeatedly explained above, unless Councilman Huizar shows up, I think I'll do a little more than three or four days organizing, and go guerrilla-style. (Maybe this month, just me and a few friends? Maybe next month? You never know, just the local press, that's the beauty part. I can also get the website, TakeAHitForFreedom.org up and running in the meantime - or do you like TakeAHit4Freedom.org better?)

If Councilman Huizar does a drop by on Tuesday with no announcement or response, I suppose that will speak for itself about his cynicism.

Also, do you have a link or e-mail for Tim Ryder? Although I have no interest in promoting Eagle Rock Clinics, other than they are more convenient than Santa Monica and many marijuana patients will suffer as a result, maybe we have issues in common. (I also suppose, given your legalistic, not to say moralistic or perhaps even religious, fervor now is probably a good time to mention that I have zero criminal or arrest record, nor have I ever sold a fraction of gram of marijuana.)

"So it makes sense to me to shut all of them down until law is settled and then create an ordinance that works for everyone."

You hit it on the nail Mr. Larson and your views are all valid : )

Bud, they can do exactly what was envisioned by Prop 215 and either grow it themselves, have a designated caregiver grow it for them, and/or get together with other patients to grow as a collective and then share the medicine.
This proposed ban only applies to the storefront pot shops like the 15 we have in Eagle Rock who are clearly selling for recreational purposes. It puts no restrictions on patients who want to grow by themselves or in collectives.

Great point Mr. Larson. Many I know agree with you 100%.

And why have restaurants, they create traffic and health hazards. We can cook at home. Why have farmers markets? We can grow vegetables in our own yards.
Why have any factories? We can build stuff at home with our neighbors. We can all become Amish.
As the top comment says; "When did the Kibbutz or a Collective model become the business model in the United States? "

Jeff -

My name is Rob Schraff, not "Bud." What is your name? At least Mr. Larsen has that much courage and courtesy.

As a long-term medical marijuana patient, I do grow my own. I also share with my fellow patients, as is our habit and culture. I also rely on clones to get adequate yields of adequate quality, in compliance with California Law.

Many, many patients are also not as lucky as me, and they face even more serious conditions imposed on them suddenly (Last time I got my recommendation renewed, I met a brain cancer patient undergoing chemo. Try a little serious humility, Councilman Huizar, Mr. Larsen and Jeff Whatever-Your-Name-Is.)

Why make us drive to Santa Monica? Why make us go underground and spend thousands on grow rooms? Why force some of us to rely on street drugs? To build the political careers of the like of Mr. Huizar, Mr. Trutanich (and Mr. Larsen - who can't even organize a holiday party celebrating this latest "victory!") and waste millions of taxpayer dollars in senseless lawsuits?

I think not.

Rob Schraff

What percentage of these pot shop customers are legitimate "patients?" I visited a few local dispensaries and learned that with a payment of $100 to an on-site "doctor," I too could claim a medical rationale to purchase their product.

"I also rely on clones to get adequate yields of adequate quality"

Maybe it's time to make your own clones from your own
mother plants so you won't have to rely on anyone or place.
Making clones is easy and fun.

"Why force some of us to rely on street drugs?"

You should have done your homework and got a good
pot connection years ago. There are many good people
that slang inside. If the shops are banned then you created your
own medicine demise by relying on pot shops.

"Why make us go underground and spend thousands on grow rooms?"

Not sure where your living but it does not cost thousands to build grow rooms
anymore unless your running a very big collective.
You could build a good size grow room 12'x10' or under for hundreds not thousands.
1000watt switchable mh/hps ballast, reflector hood and Hortilux 1000watt bulb systems are only $179.99 nowadays at most any hydro shop. Two of those systems a little lumber, cheap fans, a multi plug strip, a dozen or so clones, pots, soil, plant nutrients etc... will cost you and others less then $2000. Split the electric usage cost and there you go! Little cost and plenty o' meds. Now are you going to tell me you don't have a green thumb?

I could email you simple instructions for cloning if you would like.
Since you prefer to grow outside organically you know as well as I do that
this is done anywhere from March-Oct. Spring and summer months. You could still grow cost effective organically inside during the winter season with cheap fluorescents. 40 watts 6500k provides for lush green vegetative growth and 3000k for flowering is sufficient. Home depot has dual strip fixtures for $9.99 and the 6500k bulbs are 10 for $25. Extremely cheap and easy to grow inside starting out with 1 gal. pots then transplanted into 5 gal empty paint buckets for the rest of the entire growth. In the flowering stage you could add a little seaweed/kelp liquid extract to your feeding regiment to add tightness to the flowers.

Quality meds are cheaper if you grow your own as intended in the Prop 215.
If someone can't grow their own then they could have someone grow it for them.
Family member, friend or collective member(s) etc...

The main reason some of my friends won't or don't grow is because they like to frequent the pot shops. They said
they like the "candy store" enviroment. Recreational or Medicinal.

When it comes to a ban, I think Councilman Paul Krekorian said it best...

"I do think it affords us an opportunity to take a step back, take a clean look at it and reload, reboot, and try to come up with a policy that is going to work,"

The "Kibbutz" style reimbursement model, for medical marijuana 215 certified growers is in "Americanize" language called FARM SHARES. Goggle farm shares and you will find this type model for organic gardens. You pay during non-season farming and receive at harvest, baskets of produce. For Marijuana farm shares direct 215 to 215 certified grower and non grower contract for supplies of medical marijuana at reduced costs (both split middle man cost savings), year long. During non-growing times when costs sky rocket there is for the non grower locked in prices. For the grower there is locked in reimbursement to keep it going for themselves and the 215 non grower during growing and harvest. I am introducing this concept up here in Northern California. The existing state 215 ID cards can help to identify those who are legal and to be left alone by law enforcement, but can identify for Law enforcement those who are in excessive abuse of the farm share guidelines.

But, lets face it the criminal element across the border just benefits for all the bans on this side of the border.